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Original: 6/21/2009 10:21 AM
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Aradruin


Sunday, June 21, 2009

The Problem of Pain

 
A friend of mine on facebook a while back had a status that said he wondered why God created allergies.  I said that He didn’t, that it was a result of the fall.  Well then some other guy (I have no idea who this person is) says that I am papering over the tensions that are there about the sovereignty of God and such.  I suggested him reading a book about the subject but that wasn’t enough for him so I responded with this:

I only meant to suggest a book because you seem to have difficulty with theodicy. Those books will go into an in depth and nuanced analysis not available for facebook comments. I agree with you that we shouldnt oversimplify or paper over answers which is why reading a book on the subject could be helpful. I personally have never had a problem with the fact that there is suffering in the world and having an omnipotent God. It's never been a big sticking point for me and seems to have a logical answer that accounts for both sides. I don't and wouldnt ignore the tension there but for me it is more understandable than say Husserl v. Heideger or other things we learned in philosophy. Sorry if suggesting a book seems arrogant or something. I just think that if you did read a book with a searching for truth attitude that it could be found better there than facebook. However, facebook is a possible means to truth...

By saying we are "free" or have free will we mean that humans are moral agents culpable for their own decisions. God is still sovereign in that he is in control over everything. Yes he does have the ability to stop all bad but he cannot because he has given us the gift of free will. If God controlled everything we would be robots. What you are confusing is the ability of God to stop wrong and his "causing" it. The two are not the same. So I suppose that 2) is correct. God allows evil in the world but does not cause it. One cannot be morally blameworthy for things that one does not cause. For example, if someone is murdered in front of you and you could have prevented it by yelling but were tongue tied are you responsible for the murder? No. In a sense, God is "tongue tied" by His amazingly let us have free will. In no sense does that mean he does not have the ability to control us all and everything at once...

Rather, God holds himself back and allows evil in the world as a means to point to a need for redemption and as a "restriction" on himself of letting human beings have free will. It is a false dichotomy to then say well God is not all powerful then because he has restrictions. This is true God cannot do certain things but only because it is in his nature not to do them. For example, the sovreignty issue is shown by this thought tool. If God can do anything, can He lie? The answer is no. God cannot lie. Not because he is not all powerful but because it is in His nature to be All Truth. It would go against the very nature of God to lie. In the same way God has set forth the rules of nature (now bent by the fall) and the limitation on himself of giving man free will.

You ask him now to go against his gift of free will to us because there is just too much bad stuff going on in the world. God cannot go against his giving us free will in the same way that God cannot lie. In fact, he would be lying in a sense to do so. And, we would be unable to love him without free will. So everything would be undone. Yes God would rid the world of evil but at the cost of going against his previous gift of free will to us and against his nature. This he cannot do and thus God remains all powerful yet there still exists evil in the world. Hope this clarifies for you and is not an "oversimplification" although I doubt anyone could say that from all that I have written lol. Have a good day.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?
 Posted 6/21/2009 10:21 AM - 27 Views - 2 eProps - 4 comments

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Interesting topic of discussion. It seems you enjoy these theological/philosophical discussions. I think I really missed out in not spending more time hanging out with you during lawschool.


You started your thoughts out by talking about allergies. You ended by saying that God's nature dictates that he leave Man's will free.


A couple of comments:


First, I am having a hard itme seeing the connection. God could supernaturally intervene to "deal with" many things that cause pain and suffering on earth without defeating free will. My poor little baby Nathaniel would still have the opportunity to freely choose between good and evil without having to deal with a constant plague of allergies.


Second, I do not agree that God's nature which allows free will dictates that he allow free will in the same way that his nature dictates that he not lie. He could have created a world in which men had no free will and, honestly, I don't see that as violating his nature. The animals don't have free will. Would he somehow deny himself if he created a world in which there were only animals and no free creatures? I think the PURPOSE for creation dictates that man have free will, which is not quite the same thing as saying that the NATURE of God dictates that he not tell lies.


Greg Bahnsen (who does not believe in free will, but he nevertheless makes some good points) explains away the problem of evil/pain by adding the premise that God has a morally justifiable reason for not halting/supernaturally ending all pain and suffering.


The typical argument is this: If God is all powerful and God does not want the innocent to suffer, THEN God would stop all innocent suffering. Because God does not stop all innocent suffering, he is either not all powerful or he wants the innocent to suffer.


Bahnsen I think is right when he points out that the wrong conclusion is reached when one does not include all the appropriate premises. One should rather say: If God is all powerful, and if God does not want the innocent to suffer, and if there is a morally justifiable reason for why God nevertheless allows innocent to suffer, THEN God would not stop all innocent suffering. Because God does not stop al innocent suffering, and we believe he is all powerful and does not want the innocent to suffer, there MUST be a morally justifiable reason for allowing innocent suffering.


The morally justifiable reason can be difficult to come at, but I agree with Caleb that it has to do with his nature or purpose in creation and what he is doing in man and allowing man to do.

Posted 6/24/2009 8:13 PM by Aradruin - reply

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Jaired, If I respond to your comments here do you get some kind of notification that lets you know?
Posted 6/28/2009 6:03 PM by calebcool - reply

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No. But I'm sure I can rig that. I just need to do so. Thanks for the reminder.


Have you posted a comment in an earlier comment discussion that I haven't checked in a long while?


JBH

Posted 7/1/2009 2:17 PM by Aradruin - reply

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Ok, I just looked it up in the xanga help:


I'd love to get an email alert as soon as someone replies to my comment - is that possible?


Technically, it is possible!  However, we haven't gotten to it yet.


Stay tuned!  We may add this later, as a Premium feature.


So, Caleb, no, I don't get any notice, and it looks like I can't. I check your blog every time you post (feed reader), and if I have a comment on one of your posts, I check that every couple of days to see if there are any responses.

Posted 7/1/2009 2:23 PM by Aradruin - reply


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